Oriental Turtle-Dove (1 Viewer)

Ian Lewis · Mar 1, 2011

With the well publicised and heavily twitched nominate race Oriental Turtle-Dove remaining in Oxfordshire and with previous recrds in the UK of race meena I expect Birding World and others will soon be proposing that orientalis and meena are split.

Does anyone know if there is much intergradation between these races and similar the other four races are to meena and orientalis

Ian Lewis

MJB · Mar 1, 2011

Ian Lewis said:
With the well publicised and heavily twitched nominate race Oriental Turtle-Dove remaining in Oxfordshire and with previous recrds in the UK of race meena I expect Birding World and others will soon be proposing that orientalis and meena are split. Does anyone know if there is much intergradation between these races and similar the other four races are to meena and orientalis. Ian Lewis

Ian,
I think I'm right in saying that if meena (W Siberia to Himalayas & Nepal)is separated, it would be monotypic, which would leave orientalis (C Siberia to Japan and E to Himalayas) with 4 sspp, stimpsoni of Ryukyu Islands, orii of Taiwan, erythrocephala of S India and agricola of NE India to SC China (citing Howard & Moore 3rd edition).

Three named sspp have been synonimised with one or more of the above: sylvicola, khasiana and meridionalis.

From the above, hybridisation between meena and orientalis would seem to be possible only on any contiguous breeding distribution on the easternmost meena range.

I hope that helps a little.
MJB

Richard Klim · Mar 1, 2011

I'd generally assumed that the two groups would be:

Streptopelia (orientalis) orientalis 'Oriental Turtle Dove', incl 'stimpsoni', 'orii'
Streptopelia (orientalis) meena 'Rufous Turtle Dove', incl erythrocephala, agricola

eg, Rasmussen & Anderton 2005: "Substantial vocal differences exist between Himalayan races ([meena, agricola] which are vocally very similar) and NE Asian nominate, and more than one species may be involved."
[And consequently erythrocephala of Peninsular India seemed unlikely to be most closely related to allopatric orientalis.]

Richard

lewis20126 · Mar 1, 2011

Oriental Turtle Dove songs

[culled from the original thread from posts by me and xenospiza; a very rapid look at the online vocalizations...]

Just been checking out the few vocalizations of this species on xeno-canto; the songs from Bhutan (assume agricola?) and Taiwan (formosana-actually orii) are very similar and strikingly different to the meena recording from kazakhstan. If meena's song does not vary across its large range there could be a sharp break in song types where agricola approaches meena (guess at central Nepal?).

The break between meena and orientalis is quite sharp (Wilson, M G & Korovin, V A 2003. Oriental Turtle Dove breeding in the Western Palearctic. Br Birds 96: 234-241). The forms orii (‘formosana’ on XC is wrong) (Taiwan) and stimpsoni (Ryukyu) possibly are better merged with orientalis.

Songs from Japan (still not core range, I know) here: http://pikanakiusagi.web.fc2.com/songs_e/kijibato.html
Sound like the Bhutanese bird to me!

A sound recording of an Oriental Turtle Dove from "Siberia and the Far East" is here:
http://kobtv.narod.ru/audio/golosa-ptic.html
Go to Пластинка 4-1, and then to 4'45'' (it's between Mugimaki Flycatcher and Rustic Bunting).
On Пластинка 5-1, which appears to treat the Ussurian forest, there is another one at 1' 25'' (which sounds similar to me).

..assuming this recording is from the range of orientalis , to my ears this sounds very similar to the Bhutan & Taiwan birds rather than the Kazahkstan meena! Given the distribution I would have guessed at three vocal forms rather than two (with the peninsular Indian birds as unknown)

I'm sure someone has done some better analysis than this; of course what is needed are recordings in and adjacent to the contact areas between meena (and any associates) and the other forms

cheers, alan

MJB · Mar 1, 2011

I had heard of agricola's song being different: erythrocephala is sedentary and an isolate; meena is migratory, but of course the arrangements outlined by Richard and Alan, like my speculative version in my earlier post, will be tested by the eventual dataset!
MJB

GMK · Mar 2, 2011

Some comments (by Lars Svensson) on the taxonomy of these doves were made quite sometime ago in Wilson & Korovin (2003) Brit. Birds 96: 234–241.

Richard Klim · Mar 2, 2011

GMK said:
Some comments (by Lars Svensson) on the taxonomy of these doves were made quite sometime ago in Wilson & Korovin (2003) Brit. Birds 96: 234–241.

"Based on morphological and vocal differences, but pending detailed investigation, including DNA analysis, orientalis and meena probably merit treatment as separate species (L. Svensson in litt.)."

But the affinities of the other sspp are not discussed.

Richard

fentiger48 · Mar 4, 2011

Since both meena & orientalis are represented in captivity within the UK, it is quite possible, in fact probable, that the bird is an escapee.

Anyone thought of that option!

The late Derek England used to advise some committee many years ago on rarities and the possibility of escapees - perhaps some form of dialogue with avicultural circles might be a good thing!

Owl Capone · Mar 4, 2011

More than likely its escaped, chances of a East Siberian Pigeon wintering in the West country, seems a bit far fetched to me when it should be in SE Asia, but who knows and its up to you what you count

Ian Lewis · Mar 4, 2011

Owl Capone said:
More than likely its escaped, chances of a East Siberian Pigeon wintering in the West country, seems a bit far fetched to me when it should be in SE Asia, but who knows and its up to you what you count

Most of records of Orienal Turtle Dove in Europe are of birds in winter. There have been several records of this species overwintering in Scandinavia. As such this bird fits the established pattern for a vagrant Oriental Turtle Dove. Also being a first winter bird strengthens the case.

Ian

Xenospiza · Mar 4, 2011

Owl Capone posted exactly the same in the other thread (where it might belong), and I've given dates there. An English version of the article mentioned there should be available to Dutch Birding subscribers at a given point.

lewis20126 · Mar 4, 2011

The interesting recording appears to be the Bhutan recording which (to my ears at least!) seems to place agricola (if indeed that is the form in Bhutan) with orientalis (rather than with meena as suggested by Rasmussen & Anderton). Do others agree?

If this is the case, do any of the other forms (erythrocephala seemingly been the only possible option) sound like meena? Or - which seems possible - is meena vocally distinct from all other forms?

cheers, alan

Richard Klim · Mar 5, 2011

lewis20126 said:
The interesting recording appears to be the Bhutan recording which (to my ears at least!) seems to place agricola (if indeed that is the form in Bhutan) with orientalis (rather than with meena as suggested by Rasmussen & Anderton).

But is the form in Bhutan agricola?

eg, Peters 1937, Baptista et al 1997 (HBW4), Gibbs et al 2001 (Pigeons & Doves) describe agricola as breeding in Bihar, Orissa, Bengal and S Assam, ie excluding Bhutan and the eastern Himalayas.

And Peters, Baptista et al describe orientalis as breeding S to the Himalayas...

Richard

GMK · Mar 5, 2011

At least in the case of Baptista et al. (1997), which text I edited, and Gibbs et al. (2001), I'd place a bet that these authors just followed what had gone before, so I wouldn't read much, if anything, into their comments. Peters might be a different case, but even he might have based his decision on another source.

lewis20126 · Mar 5, 2011

Richard Klim said:
But is the form in Bhutan agricola?

eg, Peters 1937, Baptista et al 1997 (HBW4), Gibbs et al 2001 (Pigeons & Doves) describe agricola as breeding in Bihar, Orissa, Bengal and S Assam, ie excluding Bhutan and the eastern Himalayas.

And Peters, Baptista et al describe orientalis as breeding S to the Himalayas...

Richard

Yes I suppose agricola could well be south of the Bramaputra only - this is usually the biogeographic divide here (e.g. CC Laughers, CB Scimitar-babblers etc) , thus "...South Assam". So agricola is probably closest to erythrocephala and a non-Himalayan form? Agree that the Bhutan bird is likely to be orientalis.

Are there any recordings of agricola or erythrocephala available? Depending on the extent of contact along the southern edge of the Himalaya, could this be a third (predominantly lowland) "group"?

cheers, alan

Xenospiza · Mar 5, 2011

Bangladesh: http://www.avocet.zoology.msu.edu/recordings/5988 (agricola)
Jammu & Kashmir: http://www.avocet.zoology.msu.edu/recordings/7637 (meena)
China (Shaanxi): http://www.avocet.zoology.msu.edu/recordings/9650 (probably agricola)
India (Madhya Pradesh): http://macaulaylibrary.org/search.d...+orientalis&searchAudioFlag=checked&search=go (erythrocephala)
Japan (already linked to earlier): http://pikanakiusagi.web.fc2.com/mp3/kijibato1.mp3 (orientalis)

I've changed my mind now, thanks to reading Rasmussen & Anderton while listening to the songs... the split to include agricola with meena makes sense.

The description of the sound in R&A is helpful: "KRUUU, KU-KRUU, \Ooh.." describes the song of Indian agricola and meena quite accurately. However, Sander Bot's meena from Kazakhstan (http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/up...talTurtleDove7June2008DzhabaglyKazakhstan.mp3) would sound like "KRUUU KRUU, \Ooh" when transcribed similarly, lacking the slight "stutter". I don't know how significant this is?

The bird from Taiwan (http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/uploaded/SFPCKSRWSJ/OrientalTurtleDove004391.mp3) has a high song, which corresponds to R&A's "higher-pitched [...] KUU, KRUUU/coo-ooIK".
The (by analogy) orientalis from Sweden (http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/uploaded/BPSDQEOJWG/StorreTurturduvaorginalTastorp.mp3) likewise has a high song (not sounding burry at all?), which mirrors R&A's comments (although the elements of the song are difficult to hear).
The Russian bird on Record 5-1 must be orientalis as well.

I would describe the song of erythrocephala as similar to orientalis (two rough and two clear notes, albeit I guess a bit lower?); R&A do not mention this song (recorded by Ben King himself) at all!

lewis20126 · Mar 5, 2011

Xenospiza said:
China (Shaanxi): http://www.avocet.zoology.msu.edu/recordings/9650 (probably agricola)

Good stuff but agricola in Shaanxi? I assumed (probably wrongly) that meena's range went around the western edge of the Himalaya to link (if it does, likely gaps) with agricola and erythrocephala in the lowlands of the Indian subcontinent. Confused!

cheers, alan

Xenospiza · Mar 5, 2011

lewis20126 said:
Good stuff but agricola in Shaanxi? I assumed (probably wrongly) that meena's range went around the western edge of the Himalaya to link (if it does, likely gaps) with agricola and erythrocephala in the lowlands of the Indian subcontinent. Confused!

cheers, alan

Clements suggests orientalis occurs in Shaanxi, which I think the sound disproves. Unless it's all even more complicated!

lewis20126 · Mar 5, 2011

I suppose all of this assumes that vocal types neatly accord with taxa that have been defined by their morphological characters. I think a lot of the recent work on Phylloscopus in Asia suggests that is not always the case!

cheers, alan

MJB · Mar 6, 2011

Xenospiza said:
Clements suggests orientalis occurs in Shaanxi, which I think the sound disproves. Unless it's all even more complicated!

Xenospiza,
If you wanted odds that it will be even more complicated, I'll wager it will be, in € or £ (ten), or failing that buy you a drink or two!
MJB

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