Zen Ray ED2 8x42 and 10x42 evaluations and review (1 Viewer)

JC,

Interesting points. I would like to comment on a few of them. I would also like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on something I have been thinking about for several days.

Well, that crescent/halo/ghost sort of turned the attention away from the new design.

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I have tried...and tried...and done things to these binoculars that truly seem ridiculous and I just cannot see the issue that has been mentioned. Because of this I am inclined to agree with your comments at the end of the paragraph. It must be something unique to the individual.

Speaking of which, you questioned how one measures contrast, or chromatic aberration levels....good question. I would assume based on experience with other binoculars and/or in direct comparison with other binoculars that one has on hand. I know many of the individuals that have posted about various Zen ED issues do have extensive experience with other fine optical quality instruments.

Oh, I am sure there is some scientific method that would allow an individual to measure issues such as contrast or CA control. I am sure folks such as Henry or Ed have some knowledge of them. The key with that issue though is that something does not need to be physically measurable in order to be commented upon. All you need is to have some basis for comparison....which leads me to another point.

One can take all the time in the world measuring all of the minutia of a particular binocular design but what does that tell me about how the binocular looks to the user's eyes? Sure, that is subjective but sometimes a subjective comment is much more useful than boatloads of objective data.

Just my two cents.

FrankD said:

I have tried...and tried...and done things to these binoculars that truly seem ridiculous and I just cannot see the issue that has been mentioned. Because of this I am inclined to agree with your comments at the end of the paragraph. It must be something unique to the individual.

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I second what FrankD wrote about the grey crescent phenomenon. Maybe it's the way I've always looked through binos or scopes but for me, I have to place the things in such an awkward position on my face to get the glare that it's a total non-issue. Could be stray photons causing it, for all I know (or care). I'll grant that I'm not the type that uses these to admire finches in the backyard. I've been dragging them around afoot (and horseback) during the past week scouting for Mule Deer. In that capacity, they excel.

-Hooyah

mayoayo said:

And how noticeable the effect of this improvement is ,when comparing ED1 and ED2..The differences between the two version are the prism coatings and the focus speed,but i havent read yet a comparison between this aspects ,when putting the two versions side by side,..I am looking forward to hear some comments

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I find the ED2 very slightly brighter but not by much. You can see it ABing the ED1 and ED2 side by side but you wouldn't pick up a ED2 (after having seen a CHinese ED before) and say "Wow this is so much brighter". At least to me.

That said there is a bit of a difference and you can see more of a difference when you look at objects with more blue in them (especially when it's a faint blue ... the sort of thing you might get on a bird, say).

I talked to ZR about this and they said that this dielectric mirror coating has essentially flat reflectance across the visible spectrum. Both the silver mirror coating and the dielectric mirror coating start at almost the same value at 700nm (deep red) and the silver mirror reflectance rolls off as you move to the blue end (400nm) of the spectrum. In daylight your sensitivity is mostly at the yellow (red to green) part of the spectrum. So I don't perceive a big change in the overall brightness of the system.

But what I do notice if I observe the right objects are some interesting subtle changes when looking at objects that have some blue.

I found a great example when I was out checking out the ZR ED1, ED2, Hawke Frontier ED, Promaster ED and Zeiss Victory 8x40 on the same targets in the same environment.

The target of choice is a freshly molted or American Crow. If you've looked closely at this time of your you'll find they have very dark brown (chocolate chip cookie or clove-brown) sometimes a bit more reddish, older pre-molt head and contour feathers. But the freshly molted wing feathers (upper coverts, secondaries and primaries) are iridescent bluish-black. The ED2 really picks up this difference the other ED bins (with silver mirror) it's not quite so distinct.

You can also seem some subtle shifts if you look at say blue flowers or flowers that are mauve or lilac and compare the silver mirror bins warmer/redder presentation wot the ED2 slightly more accurate presentation (compare to no bin at all!).

The ED2 aren't "blue-white" like the Zeiss FL say. They're still warm compared to that.

Again it's a subtle difference and shows up in an AB but the rest of the time you can be a bit happier you are close to real life. Of course, like turning the base up a bit, I think some may like the ED1 slightly warmer presentation.

I suspect this effect will really come into it's own when you are chasing birds with some blue in them (one of the Bluebirds, Indigo Bunting, or even Brewer's Blackbirds, Grackles and the like) especially at a distance or in more compromised light.

The focus rate change seems like a wash to me. There are two components to "focusing speed" that I've babbled on about before: focusing tension and the focusing rate.

The focusing rate has gone up by 30%. It now takes about 0.8 turns to cover what I consider the birdwatching distance of 10 feet to infinity. And it gets faster as you go to infinity so at the typical birding distance 30 feet to infinity takes about 0.2 to 0.3 turns. That's quick enough so you just move your index finger without repositioning it. For say a typical passerine birding ID distance of 3m to 30m requires about 0.5 turns.

The force to turn the focuser is up a bit (probably by 30% ... it's all screws and levers) though it's difficult to say how much as these 43mm bins have yet to "run in". I've noticed the 36mm ED2 I've been using most of the last few days has "run in" very nicely and the focuser tension is now rather lower than when it came out of the box. It's still a bit higher than the ED1. And that in turn was higher than the totally loose Hawke and even more so Promaster. I sort of like that low friction focusing (I'm clearly not as manly as SteveC ). But overall I like the change though I was a bit worried the focuser tension would be too high.

The focusing rate is low closer in and if you are trying to sneak up on a wren in a bush then you will still find it rather slow. But I think overall for "normal" birding its good enough (for me).

Kevin,

That rendition of blues makes the 8x32 FL a pleasure. The combination of dielectric coating and low dispersion glass make a difference.
I also had a little difficulty cranking my 7x36 down from infinity to almost minimum focus when I noticed a female American redstart out my wind but I do not often do that. Moving from four meters to minimum focus would be more typical of my close encounters.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

Hooyah1 said:

I second what FrankD wrote about the grey crescent phenomenon. Maybe it's the way I've always looked through binos or scopes but for me, I have to place the things in such an awkward position on my face to get the glare that it's a total non-issue. Could be stray photons causing it, for all I know (or care). I'll grant that I'm not the type that uses these to admire finches in the backyard. I've been dragging them around afoot (and horseback) during the past week scouting for Mule Deer. In that capacity, they excel.

-Hooyah

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Hooyah, I agree 100%, especially the mule deer scouting thing, which is what I do with mine 99% of the time.

Kevin,
Thanks for the explanation... ,.So the difference Would be more noticeable in overcast days ,shady areas or in the dawn/dusk hours,when the predominant light is a little cooler..

Kevin Purcell said:

I found a great example when I was out checking out the ZR ED1, ED2, Hawke Frontier ED, Promaster ED and Zeiss Victory 8x40 on the same targets in the same environment.

The target of choice is a freshly molted or American Crow. If you've looked closely at this time of your you'll find they have very dark brown (chocolate chip cookie or clove-brown) sometimes a bit more reddish, older pre-molt head and contour feathers. But the freshly molted wing feathers (upper coverts, secondaries and primaries) are iridescent bluish-black. The ED2 really picks up this difference the other ED bins (with silver mirror) it's not quite so distinct.

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excellent review. I don't particularly enjoy watching American crow. But they are great targets whenever I am trying to check out some new camera lenses because of the strong contast of their dark body. They sure are a good candidate to check CA too.

mayoayo said:

Kevin,
Thanks for the explanation... ,.So the difference Would be more noticeable in overcast days ,shady areas or in the dawn/dusk hours,when the predominant light is a little cooler..

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Perhaps.

It should also be more apparent at twilight and into the night when scotoptic vision with it's blue-green sensitivity peak takes over from photopic vision with it's yellow sensitivity peak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotopic_vision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminosity_function

I think they're going to be subtle effects but its just nudged nicely in the right direction.

I'm amused by all corvids even when not testing bins but American Crow is very useful for a lot of tests because it's ubiquitous.

Kevin Purcell said:

I found a great example when I was out checking out the ZR ED1, ED2, Hawke Frontier ED, Promaster ED and Zeiss Victory 8x40 on the same targets in the same environment.

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I didn't mention this above but the reason I went out with all those bins was to check out the "crescents" and just to see if they all fell along the view quality "line" I recalled.

The veiling glare "crescents" are the same in all these Chinese ED bins.

It's not got worse in the 43mm ED2.

For this glare problem they're all the same. Each one of the Chinese ED has the same issue or absence of issue. Neither worse than the other. It doesn't get in the way: the veiling glare doesn't really make it to the center of the field without prompting you to move your eyes a bit.

It's the same as all of us using the Chinese ED for the past year. I've mentioned "Stray light" issues with these bins previously but pointed out that it was not enough to get in the way of birding though it occasionally pops up. Mostly I adjust eye position and IPD and it ceases to be an issue. I don't see a significant difference "crescents" between the order: Zen Ray ED2, Zen Ray ED1, the wider FOV Hawke Frontier ED and the narrow FOV Promaster ED. THe FOV differences are not huge just a few tenths of a degrees

The view quality (contrast/brightness/sharpness) goes in the same order as I recall. In decreasing order: Zen Ray ED2, Zen Ray ED1, Hawke Frontier ED, Promaster ED and Zeiss Victory 8x40 on the same targets in the same environment.

If you want to bracket that with the top bins I'd put the Zeiss FL 7x42 and Zeiss FL 8x32 at the head of that list but I need to do some more ED2 versus Zeiss testing.

So it is no difference of the amount of glare between the ed1 and ed2 8x43, and yet this is such a big issue now with the ed2?

kristoffer said:

So it is no difference of the amount of glare between the ed1 and ed2 8x43, and yet this is such a big issue now with the ed2?

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To summarize this thread Edz found it a problem but pretty much all of the other users of the don't see it as a problem (and in fact quite a lot don't see it). I can see it but don't find problematic at all on the 43mm.

Henry Link didn't see it either when we used a very similar open bridge Chinese ED binocular (without dielectric coating).

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=145296

Henry Link said:

Flare Control: I wouldn’t expect any special problems with veiling glare, as I didn’t see any unusually bad internal reflections near the exit pupil. I did find the Intrepid to have superb resistance to ghosting, as good as any binocular I’ve seen.

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The discussion on the 7x36 ED2 thread shows how eye placement is critical to experience this effect.

I suggest people try the bin and decide for themselves.

Kevin Purcell said:

Henry Link didn't see it either when we used a very similar open bridge Chinese ED binocular (without dielectric coating).

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Please don't take that as an endorsement from me. I haven't tested or even seen any Zen-Ray binocular. It's true that I didn't notice any glare problems with the Intrepids, but I had limited time and looking for glare was not high on my list of priorities.

Kevin Purcell said:

I suggest people try the bin and decide for themselves.

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Yeah, hopefully I get it by monday. THe custom seem to have grabbed the package.

henry link said:

It's true that I didn't notice any glare problems with the Intrepids, but I had limited time and looking for glare was not high on my list of priorities.

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Which is sort of my point, Henry. Given this thread has become a commentary on veiling glare in the 43mm ED2.

With a quick look, but a long enough one to collect the data in that test, you didn't see any veiling glare (and actually complemented on it's lack of veiling glare) in the Atlas Intrepid.

The underlying binocular optical designs are "the same" (with differences in coatings and armor, AFAICT). I think that's a general belief here.

Unfortunately, I haven't used an Atlas Intrepid yet so I can't make a direct comparison myself but my comparisons of all the other open-bridge Chinese ED bins is they have identical veiling glare performance.

So my quotation of your comment about veiling glare is pertinent even if you don't endorse the ZR bin directly.

Kevin Purcell said:

... you didn't see any veiling glare (and actually complemented on it's lack of veiling glare) in the Atlas Intrepid.

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Kevin,

Sorry to quibble over details, but what I complemented was the lack of ghosting, not veiling glare. Unfortunately I didn't do any rigorous testing for glare. I could have failed to see any bright internal reflections simply because the focusing lens happened to be in the infinity position when I examined the innards.

Henry

Well I decided to switch to 8x43's and I am much happier--Halo effect is effectively gone and the image is better due to less apparent wobble from my grip.

Thanks to the folks @ Zen-Ray for handling the situation in a prompt and professional manner.

Very nice glass--Tough, too I've accidentally (Honest!) dropped them twice, in their case and they are no worse for the wear.

Pictures, please... This forum has a way to post pictures in the threads. If you could pleeeeeeeeeease post some pictures here...

Having read this thread I am coming to the conclusion that there are two types of people that buy binoculars:

1. Binocular techies who like to test, analyse, compare and contrast to other bins.
2. People who just want to look through them to see things e.g. birdwatchers.

I am firmly in the latter category and am wondering if all the negative comments about the crescent/halo/ghost thing is something that might bother a techie but may not be important to someone who just wants to look at birds.

Could someone clarify the following for me:

Is the crescent/halo/ghost thing

1. A minor effect barely noticeable at bottom of view and is not a distraction and does not affect the clarity and resolution of the image.

2. An effect so noticeable at bottom of view that it is an irritating distraction but does not affect the clarity and resolution of the image.

3. An effect so noticeable that it impinges on the image and detracts from the clarity and resolution of the image.

I was considering Zen Ray ED2 8x42 but all the negative comments made me rule them out. Maybe I was a bit too hasty, hence the above question. If they deliver as good an image in all other respects as stated on this thread I could live with the crescent/halo/ghost thing if it falls into category 1 above.

The alternative bins I am considering are Swift Audubon 8.5x44 WP ED. Any comments on how they compare.

Finally, I apologise if the word "techie" causes offence to anybody. I don't mean to. I just can't think of another suitable word at the moment.

I can not see the glare. So alternative 4, imo. It is a spectacular bin, for the cost of a average one.

birchall

I don't think there is a definite answer to your question. No particular design will be free of fault and will not satisfy everybody. Having said that, I don't about how one considers the negative posts against the overwhelming majority of positive posts. I think if the halo was an issue for the majority of people the ZEN ED would have fallen flat instead of moving off the shelves like it is, and there would have been either far more negative posts or it would have devolved into no discussion at all about them.

That halo obviously affects some people. Whether or not you are one of them, only you will be able to tell. The glare/crescent/halo issue does not bother me, but that does not mean it won't bother you. There is probably somebody in every one of your categories, but I think most are probably in Kristoffer's proposed category 4, or in your category 1.

The Swift has some eye cup size issues too, the oculars are very large in diameter and may not fit every body comfortably. I didn't like the way they fit me, so I returned mine. Again, because I didn't like the eye cup fit does not mean you will dislike them. I thought the ZEN ED 8x43 I had when I had the Audubon was better on the edges, and had a brighter image. Both are good binoculars.

I’ve been testing and using a Zen ED2 10x43 for about a week now. Corrections are very good and consistent between barrels. Glare is not an issue although 3” extensions on the objectives would allow even greater latitude when scanning near bright off axis objects or vistas.
I am impressed with its overall performance and construction. The bridge assembly is incredibly rigid. I’ve had decent quality binoculars that could be bent in and out of alignment with just a gentle twisting of the barrels, no so with the Zen.
In addition to other tests which have been dealt with at length in this topic, two other practical tests show Jupiter nicely defined and the Moon with hardly any spurious reflections.
Both barrels focus almost simultaneously allowing for crisp and repeatable focus without having to fiddle with the diopter. Also, the diopter adjustment is very precise. Under magnification a slight movement of the diopter is seen to alter the focus of the right barrel without noticeable slop and is repeatable in either direction. When matching both barrels, the true focus was only off by one click.
Visual observation is a joy. I often get a sense of reality when looking through these that is very pleasing indeed.
I’ve ordered an 2.5x elite doubler and if the quality of the doubler is good, I expect to get quality 25x images which will rival a decent 40mm spotting scope.
Herb