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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Problem with green coating of EL SV 8x32 (5 Viewers)

No I misunderstood, and no it is not the Spanish Inquisition, I thought you meant you owned 5 SV Swarovision roof Swarovski binoculars. Thanks.
Can we all just draw breath and calm down a bit.
Heck of a Friday evening, is it not.
 
I've heard that they can't revert to the earlier harder-wearing armour as those are considered hazardous under current regulations.
But these wouldn't be only Austrian regulations. Where is the disintegrating armor on Zeiss, Leica, Meopta etc? What is Swarovski not acknowledging doing differently? (they are also the only one to phase out hydrophobic coating so far)

In any case at this point one can no longer dispute whether there's a problem. It's simply a matter of understanding who gets it and who doesn't. So what are the possibilities?

Mechanical wear - most damage is occuring in areas of thumb/finger contact; does this reflect differing amounts of use?
Climate - good photographic evidence for clusters of problems in the tropics.
Both of the above, together - sounds plausible to me.

DEET and other lotions - probably not, many affected say they don't use them.
Acidity of sweat - possibly not, no correlation yet established with degradation of materials on anyone's other products.
Good/bad batches of armor - uncertain, dates of manufacture not collected. But what would the flaw be, and how likely is this really? It's just plastic.

By the way, do we know when the new degradable armor was introduced?
 
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I bet the Zeiss advocates are cocking their sides at us muppets buying swarovski, (myself included) especially the clowns that have bought the NLs :)
So now your calling hundreds of members who bought Swarovski optics clowns
But these wouldn't be only Austrian regulations. Where is the disintegrating armor on Zeiss, Leica, Meopta etc? What is Swarovski not acknowledging doing differently? (they are also the only one to phase out hydrophobic coating so far)

In any case at this point one can no longer dispute whether there's a problem. It's simply a matter of understanding who gets it and who doesn't. So what are the possibilities?

Mechanical wear - most damage is occuring in areas of thumb/finger contact; does this reflect differing amounts of use?
Climate - good photographic evidence for clusters of problems in the tropics.
Both of the above, together - sounds plausible to me.

DEET and other lotions - probably not, many affected say they don't use them.
Acidity of sweat - possibly not, no correlation yet established with degradation of materials on anyone's other products.
Good/bad batches of armor - uncertain, dates of manufacture not collected. But what would the flaw be, and how likely is this really? It's just plastic.

By the way, do we know when the new degradable armor was introduced?
As more and more information is coming out from Swarovski , and from users having issues using them in moderate climates, this differs from what my Swaro source had said. But we can extrapolate some information from all of this , and come up with a possible issue scenario. My source said it was a compound used in the armor mixture that they didn’t know would deteriorate as it did, in high humidity environments , which we now know it’s not accurate because of failures in dryer climates.

So we’re left with a bunch of data, it’s happening in all environments , we still don’t know the ratio of where it’s happening more, but nonetheless it’s happening in dry climates as well. Then we have the admitted knowledge of a compound that was used , we also know that this material has been used since the introduction of the SV line in 2010, unless the compound changed somewhere after 2010.

From that we might be able to extrapolate that , this is not happening to a huge percentage ,otherwise we’d be hearing about this all the time in the last 12 years , and we’re not. Even two very reputable retailers have told me that they have not seen any of them come back for this issue. So that also could mean that it’s not the biodegradable material being used with that specific compound ( he did name it) in general. Of course again we don’t have the percentages of units sold and how many are falling apart.

We’ve talked about it being the material, maybe it had more to do with a defect in the compound, that could explain a lot. So if you get a bad supply of the compound being used in the armor itself every couple years, then you start to see that it’s not wide scale but more in these batches made with a defective compound. Food for thought.

Paul
 
As more and more information is coming out from Swarovski , and from users having issues using them in moderate climates, this differs from what my Swaro source had said. But we can extrapolate some information from all of this , and come up with a possible issue scenario. My source said it was a compound used in the armor mixture that they didn’t know would deteriorate as it did, in high humidity environments , which we now know it’s not accurate because of failures in dryer climates.

So we’re left with a bunch of data, it’s happening in all environments , we still don’t know the ratio of where it’s happening more, but nonetheless it’s happening in dry climates as well. Then we have the admitted knowledge of a compound that was used , we also know that this material has been used since the introduction of the SV line in 2010, unless the compound changed somewhere after 2010.

From that we might be able to extrapolate that , this is not happening to a huge percentage ,otherwise we’d be hearing about this all the time in the last 12 years , and we’re not. Even two very reputable retailers have told me that they have not seen any of them come back for this issue. So that also could mean that it’s not the biodegradable material being used with that specific compound ( he did name it) in general. Of course again we don’t have the percentages of units sold and how many are falling apart.

We’ve talked about it being the material, maybe it had more to do with a defect in the compound, that could explain a lot. So if you get a bad supply of the compound being used in the armor itself every couple years, then you start to see that it’s not wide scale but more in these batches made with a defective compound. Food for thought.

Paul
My guess is that climate may be a contributing factor given the seemingly higher incidence of this in sunny Singapore than in temperate regions. Swarovski in Austria may not have fully considered the tropical weather during product development.
 
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My guess is that climate may be a contributing factor given the seemingly higher incidence of this in sunny Singapore than in temperate regions. Swarovski in Austria may not have fully considered the tropical weather during product development.

Swarovski have already stated heat and humidity are a contributory factor, and I think the clustering of reports on here support that - I think from the weighting of reports it might be the largest contributory factor. It's difficult to judge how much usage plays a part as one owner might use a single pair of binoculars and others have a few different pairs that they rotate depending on whim or observation conditions, and of course some members are retired and can bird for several hours a week, others will only fit in a couple of hours a week etcetera. I don't think DEET etc seems to be the main factor, but having seen cameras ruined by the dreadful stuff it will probably be an issue in a small number of cases - most people know not to use it and handle plastics.

From memory the original grey Zeiss SFs armour failed mainly from usage rather than climate, but they were around for such a short period due to the focuser issues that I don't think there's enough data to be sure.
 
Swarovski have already stated heat and humidity are a contributory factor, and I think the clustering of reports on here support that - I think from the weighting of reports it might be the largest contributory factor. It's difficult to judge how much usage plays a part as one owner might use a single pair of binoculars and others have a few different pairs that they rotate depending on whim or observation conditions, and of course some members are retired and can bird for several hours a week, others will only fit in a couple of hours a week etcetera. I don't think DEET etc seems to be the main factor, but having seen cameras ruined by the dreadful stuff it will probably be an issue in a small number of cases - most people know not to use it and handle plastics.

From memory the original grey Zeiss SFs armour failed mainly from usage rather than climate, but they were around for such a short period due to the focuser issues that I don't think there's enough data to be sure.
Although the EL 10x42s I reported here in 2019 had been to Spain on a few birding trips (spring and autumn migrations, hot at times, maybe, but not noted for humidity), the rest of their life is spent on the north-east coast of England in Northumberland, an area not noted for its heat, and one of the driest places in Britain, only a couple of inches of rain behind the south-east per year (we get about 24-25 inches locally, so anything but humid). They may claim that heat and humidity are factors, but by no means are they the main contributors. My bins were used often, but treated well, yet the coating fell to bits in only a couple of years (and no - I don't splash myself in DEET or sun cream. I don't have sweaty palms, my binoculars and expensive cameras don't rattle about in the back of a dusty van and I'm not in the habit of attacking them with sharp metal edges). They were properly used, mainly in temperate weather and yet they fell to bits in three years without any outside assistance. I qualified as a land surveyor in 1973, so it's in my blood to look after optics properly.

They were bought in June 2016. By early 2019 they were showing signs of deterioration and by September 2019 they were holed and torn, loose and repaired free of charge by Swarovski.
 
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So now your calling hundreds of members who bought Swarovski optics clowns
It was tongue in cheek, have a sense of humour.
Oh and can you please stop posting saying my source at Swarovski said this and said that. Now you're saying your source at Swarovski was wrong so have decided to extrapolate/speculate.
If you don't have anything definitive to say then don't say it. Just a thought as this thread is getting very heated and speculative posts aren't helpful. Let the photos do the talking imo.
 
I have never before checked the humidity in my city and now I do. I start to worry, get stressed and I start sweating ! perfect combination to post pictures here of my beloved 10x42 ELs!
I got from a happy EL owner to a sweaty one in no time.
That's the kind of effect the BF threads have on some of its members: you have never noticed CA? read some posts here and you will see the fringes. not aware of RB (rolling ball/bowl)? info in some threads here will tell you how to notice it and get dizzy. you don't know anything about SA (spherical aberration) of the EP? no problem, read some posts here and the view thru your binos will black out and you'll see kidney beans. you have not noticed that the focuser moves more easily in one direction? that's because you're not paying enough attention, stop looking at birds and pay more attention to the resistance of your focuser. ETC.
 
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It was tongue in cheek, have a sense of humour.
Oh and can you please stop posting saying my source at Swarovski said this and said that. Now you're saying your source at Swarovski was wrong so have decided to extrapolate/speculate.
If you don't have anything definitive to say then don't say it. Just a thought as this thread is getting very heated and speculative posts aren't helpful. Let the photos do the talking imo.
No. I’ll post what I want. If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it. I’m bringing up a point that the source admitted an issue , but most likely doesn’t have hall the info. It’s quite definitive if you know how to read. Keep your snide comments to yourself.
 
Perhaps of interest, these MKi are currently being offered on e*ay. Notice how different this armour appears given many years of heavy use in the field, warped but still intact.
Screenshot 2023-07-08 13.21.29.png Screenshot 2023-07-08 13.21.38.png Screenshot 2023-07-08 13.19.30.png Screenshot 2023-07-08 13.19.20.png
A friend bought EL FP 8x32 at the end of the production run (last year?) as a spare pair of bins, and the armouring is already coming off.

Whatever is happening, and how many units are affected, it isn't acceptable that people make a significant investment for kit which (in some circumstances at least) isn't fit for purpose.
 
Below are excerpts from my correspondence with Swaro (from Aug 2020). As one can see Swaro engineers have been aware of the problems of FP/NL armor for at least 3 years, but it seems they have not found a solution yet, or perhaps they do not consider that a change is necessary..

My questions:
I have three Swarovski binoculars, all Swarovision (SV) models, and they all look like new after a number of years of (admittedly light) use. I must admit that I am not fond of the modifications made when replacing the SV line with the Field Pro (FP) line. In particular I like the armor of the SV more than that of the FP:
-Is the FP's armor much less robust? I have seen a number of reports that seem to suggest that it deteriorates quite a bit even after modest usage (for example, see the attached photo, but I have seen even worse cases). Is it made using biodegradable materials? Anyway what's the difference from the SV's armor?
-The SV armor does not seem to need any special care (just common sense) but how about the FP's armor?----any advice as to how to prolong its life? The new NL Pure line seems to have the same armor as the FP, is this correct?

Swaro reply:
The armouring material of Swarovski binos was changed 2015 with the new FP series due to environmental, cosmetic and allergic reasons.
The new material is - on a long term perspective - biodegradable. The new NL armouring is made out of the same material.
In general the new material overall has a better resistance and performance (Temperature, UV, humidity, abrasion) than the old one of the SV, but if it deteriorates, its damage behavior differs from the older material - due to the biodegradability. The old material blisterd the new gets softer and softer until it tears.
Prolongation of the armouring is possible if you apply a good cleaning and treatment of it, like for instance for leather. For the rare case of deterioration we offer a free replacement.
 
Perhaps of interest, these MKi are currently being offered on e*ay. Notice how different this armour appears given many years of heavy use in the field, warped but still intact.
View attachment 1519647 View attachment 1519648 View attachment 1519649 View attachment 1519650
A friend bought EL FP 8x32 at the end of the production run (last year?) as a spare pair of bins, and the armouring is already coming off.

Whatever is happening, and how many units are affected, it isn't acceptable that people make a significant investment for kit which (in some circumstances at least) isn't fit for purpose.
A simple estimate of the age of a Swaro binocular can be obtained from the amount of paint loss on the hinge edges, which is caused by rubbing such as when the bino is used bandolier style (by this method the bino in the above pics should be at least 20y old......). I believe this issue is also unique to Swaro, but I am not sure why---maybe the layer of paint on the hinge is too thin?
 
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