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Whitestart or Redstart for the Myioborus (Neotropics) (1 Viewer)

Birding Peru

Well-known member
Dear all

The official AOU South American Checklist Committee have decided to keep on calling the Myioborus Redstarts in spite that many recent authors of field guides have used the term whitestart indicating that the outer tail feathers of all members of the genus are white and not red. They were named originally redstarts becuase of resemblence of American Redstart.

On www.birdingperu.com clicking on Captain Chaos instant survey and discussion board you get all the background and may vote for the alternative you prefer.

Welcome

Gunnar
 
Hi Tim

Don't forget to leave your vote on www.birdingperu.com

I hope that the AOU SACC will see this and realize that when deciding on a name for birds in the Neotropical hemisphere they should take into account also those who will be using the name and the acceptance that some of the alternatives already have gotten.
I do not know exactly how many people the committe is made up of, but there is a bias of US americans and there are at the most a dozen members.
For those species that have alternative names since de Schauensee (Birds of South America) the committee is conservative in some case (for stability they say) and in other cases they endorse new names. In other cases they propose totally new English names for birds recently described only adding to the confusion themselves and overiding the authors of the recent papers.
Kapten Kaos will continue presenting other birds with alternative names for the South American region on www.birdingperu.com

Stay tuned!

Gunnar
 
Next one for him to deal with is the grammatic barbarism of capitals after hyphens - ghastly stuff like "Fulvous Whistling-Duck" instead of the grammatically correct Fulvous Whistling Duck or Fulvous Whistling-duck
 
the latter is not grammatically correct Pete!

see OBC Checklist for a detailed explanation of correct grammar in bird names by Tim Inskipp

I don't think Sibley and Monroe took English classes at school....
 
Tim Allwood said:
the latter is not grammatically correct Pete!

see OBC Checklist for a detailed explanation of correct grammar in bird names by Tim Inskipp

I don't think Sibley and Monroe took English classes at school....

Tx - I prefer Fulvous Whistling Duck so that's fine by me!

Is the OBC Checklist on the net or do I have to buy a copy?

Agreed on S&M ;)
 
Hi Pete

it's all rather pedantic and to do with adjectival nouns (appear to be nouns but are actually adjectives etc) all very dull. The ist is on the net but the intro and Tim's explanation is only in the print version - which can be picked up for an absolute bargain I think at the moment (they were a fiver at BBWF) It's an incredibly meticulously researched document. Might be on our website under 'sales'

Tim
 
Pete and Tim

If you want to get rid of the hyphenated Whistling-Duck then you are in for a big fight with AOU. AOU does not like compound names, but when they have to use them they "have to be" `hyphenated. Clements follow ABA, which in turn follow AOU...and a very large number of birders follow Clements when it comes to world listing. You'll need an army of KAOS-warriors to get rid of hyphens!

Gunnar

Gunnar
 
Although I live far away in Canada and am strictly an amateur, I’m someone with a strong interest in neo-tropical birds. I’ve felt considerable frustration when trying to learn them, however, because of the confusion caused by inconsistent English names from different sources. Please don’t talk to me about scientific names – it’s hard enough to learn all these new species in one’s own language; doing so in a predominantly foreign, dead one is just not going to happen. I personally don’t care if English names are “inappropriate”. Changing all inappropriate English names is a non-starter, as there are too many that are too well established – witness many of the other wood warbler names. Besides, “appropriate” names, such as plumage descriptors, are often so very dull, at least in my opinion. And I find some of the “inappropriate names” quaint or interesting. I would say don’t even consider fiddling with a name unless at least one of the following is true:

1) the overseeing ornithological body in another region uses a different name
2) the current name is somehow offensive (Was “oldsquaw” really offensive? Anyway it’s gone and besides the AOU also applied 1) in this case, although I find “long-tailed duck” dreadfully prosaic.)
3) the name is REALLY inappropriate and could mislead, say, impressionable children (e.g. calling a stork an ibis, or a sandpiper a plover).

So let’s make consistency, not appropriateness, the primary goal in English bird names. Let’s choose names and then STICK TO THEM. Or rather, let’s let a senior, respected ornithological body for the region do so – what other practical possibility is there? In this case the most senior, respected ornithological body covering the area where at least some Myioborus occur is the AOU, and the AOU uses redstart. So they are redstarts for me. “Redstart” has as much (or as little) charm as “whitestart”. Besides, if I had to guess, I’d say that the neo-tropical country visited by the most birders is Costa Rica, and if I’m not mistaken they are redstarts in the field guide to that country as well. I’m with the SACC on this one.
 
Hi Matt,

Under this rule . . . .



mattpau said:
3) the name is REALLY inappropriate and could mislead, say, impressionable children (e.g. calling a stork an ibis, or a sandpiper a plover).

All the American 'sparrows' should be re-named buntings (they're in the bunting family Emberizidae, not the sparrow family Passeridae), the American 'vultures' should be re-named storks (yes, that's what they are, not real vultures!) or at least condors, ......, ....., the list goes on! :t:

And of course, for the same reason, Myioborus are not Phoenicurus, so shouldn't be called 'redstart', as they aren't!

:brains:
 
mattpau said:
I’ve felt considerable frustration when trying to learn them, however, because of the confusion caused by inconsistent English names from different sources.

Sorry, but with the number of new discoveries/splits/lumps in the Neotropics I guess you will have to cope with changing names. In this part of the World the very complex and ever changing taxonomy is the truly confusing subject, not the names!


mattpau said:
3) the name is REALLY inappropriate and could mislead, say, impressionable children (e.g. calling a stork an ibis, or a sandpiper a plover).

Don't "Redstart" apply when the vast majority of species in the group don't have even a single red feather (tail or anywhere else)? On the other hand the white in their tails is one of the most striking features as many species in this group fans and flicks it more or less consistently.


mattpau said:
Or rather, let’s let a senior, respected ornithological body for the region do so – what other practical possibility is there? In this case the most senior, respected ornithological body covering the area where at least some Myioborus occur is the AOU, and the AOU uses redstart.

Yes, no doubts that in general AOU or alike should deal with these subjects. Indeed, it wouldn't be appropriate to leave many of the subjects they deal with to a more or less random public forum (splits to accept, etc.). However, the subject discussed here is straight forward - you don't need any knowledge on biochemistry, bottleneck populations, hybridization zones and alike. The fact is that any group (no matter how knowledgable the members may be) make mistakes. I have a great respect for the majority of the members on the SACC, but I (and many others) think a mistake was made in this particular case. So, rather than keep quiet it seems logical to comment in a fair fashion if we think the decision was mistaken - having said that, I must admit that I don't quite fancy the tone in some posts on the voting page, no matter "who started". At this point it is also rather obvious that a growing number of birders use Whitestart rather than Redstart (at least in South America) and in some regions it appears Whitestart is virtually the only one in use. So, it seems Whitestart already caught on, no matter if it is recognized by SACC or not. Indeed it appears that the name "Redstart" for the Neotropical members of the genus Myioborus isn't as deeply carved into ornithology as some seem to believe (in no way comparable to the America "Robin" of the US). Note that English names largely are for birders, while scientists use Scientific names almost exclusively due to accuracy. Hence, there is a serious problem if the name accepted by SACC differ from the one used in real (am I the only one thinking Swallow-tailed Manakin here? Can someone please show me a recent birding report mentioning Chiroxiphia caudata under that name?).

Furthermore, as mentioned on the page linked to in the thread-started, far less logical changes have been accepted - even coined - by SACC in recent years: Yes, I had finally gotten used to Lulu's TT and now they want me to use Johnson's???? There's going to be plenty of new species they can name after this great man, why choose one he had described under another name? They have also happily accepted changes in many other names, most of which I agree on completely, but they were no more justifiable than the change proposed here. Furthermore I must admit that I don't know who should be confused over these name changes as long as they are logic - the relatively few people that are likely to even notice are generally well aware of the change even before it happen officially.


mattpau said:
Besides, if I had to guess, I’d say that the neo-tropical country visited by the most birders is Costa Rica, and if I’m not mistaken they are redstarts in the field guide to that country as well.

It should be mentioned that SACC is short for "South American Classification Committee" - hence they don't deal with Costa Rican species or names (even though they obviously are connected indirectly). Regardless, I am fairly sure Ecuador is closing in on Costa Rica and will probably pass that country shortly (if it hasn't done so already). Just about everybody in Ecuador calls the members of genus Myioborus "Whitestarts" rather than "Redstarts". There are no doubts that part of the reason is that Ridgley chose to use this name in his new guide for Ecuador. Note that the only other recent & thorough guide dealing with birds of this region (Venezuela - by Hilty) also use Whitestart rather than Redstart. Venezuela is particularly interesting as it has the highest diversity of species from this genus - perhaps as many as 7, though exact taxonomy still hasn't been clarified.


Regardless of above - if this is something you have an opinion about pay the site a visit and vote... it's certainly not going to hurt anybody!
 
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Here's a something from the voting comments:

Larry Gardella Voted: All Myioborus should be called Whitestart

"Whitestart is unique, whereas Redstart is not - even within the US. It (whitestart) is both more accurate and more definitive. "

And it is a good point - Using the name 'redstart' might cause confusion with the Eurasian genus Phoenicurus. The American Redstart probably got it's name in the same way the American Robin did. By extension, should we rename Turdus rufiventris the South American Robin? Should we extend the name 'robin' to all American members of the genus Turdus? Of course that would be silly, but not much more than extending the name redstart to all Myioborus.

I like calling them whitestarts.

Jeff
 
I should point out that I was not suggesting that if at least one of my 3 "rules" applies, then the common English name should necessarily be changed. Rather, I said that one shouldn't consider changing the name unless one of the rules applies. Implicitly, I meant that, if at least one of the rules applies, you could consider a name change, but you wouldn't necessarily make it. And if none of the rules applies, don't even go there!

The "really inappropriate" name examples are real, which may not be obvious to European birders: some years back the AOU changed "Wood Ibis" to "Wood Stork" (it is a stork) and "Upland Plover" to "Upland Sandpiper" (it is considered a sandpiper). I have mixed feelings even about this, but it does seem pretty bad to imply through the English name that one particular stork or sandpiper is in a different family, so I can go along with it. These are cases of a single species being given the typical name from a family to which it doesn't belong; they are different from Peter's examples - storks are generally called storks, not ibises. Most American sparrows, though, are generally called, well, sparrows, as "inappropriate" as the name may be. In each of Peter's examples we're dealing with many species, and the inappropriate name is generally the result of a group of American birds having been given the name of European birds that looked similar to "early American birdwatchers". And of course the case of "redstart" for Myioborus is somewhat analagous - a group of birds was given the name of other birds of spurious taxonomic proximity.

Rasmus, I'm well aware of the constantly evolving taxonomy of neotropical birds. This to me is an added argument for NOT changing English names when no taxonomic split/lump/novelty is involved. There's no need for any more confusion, thank you very much.

I'm also well aware that SACC stands for South American Checklist Committee - I enjoy reading their discussions on their web site. (Like you, though, I found their decision to change Lulu's TT to Johnson's very dubious indeed.) But to return to the discussion at hand, surely we don't want the Myioborus species that occurs on both sides of the Panama-Colombia border (Slate-throated) to have one name for North America and a different one for South America! And the AOU, rightly or wrongly, has had "redstart" as the name for Myioborus since they extended their coverage to south of the Rio Grande, if I'm not mistaken.

What's in a name? Or, in this particular case, what's in a bird name? Ideally:
1) a handy label that people can use and have understood without confusion
2) for the poetically-inclined, a word that has some beauty, charm or "memorableness"
3) something that imparts information about what it refers to.

I guess for me 1) and 2) are more important than 3) - my ordering was not a coincidence!

Finally, Rasmus, I suppose you could convince me that almost as many serious birders go to Ecuador as Costa Rica. But what about casual birders? Surely far more ecotourists go to Costa Rica than to Ecuador. And surely some of them buy the bird field guide?! ;)
 
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Oregonian said:
Here's a something from the voting comments:

Larry Gardella Voted: All Myioborus should be called Whitestart

"Whitestart is unique, whereas Redstart is not - even within the US. It (whitestart) is both more accurate and more definitive. "

In the name of accuracy the AOU should rename the American Redstart
Orangestart ...

Dalcio
 
dacol said:
In the name of accuracy the AOU should rename the American Redstart
Orangestart ...

Dalcio

I am not so much for a lot of name changes and inventing new alternatives. But when there are already alternatives in the literature I think it is the obligation of an official AOU Checklist committee to choose the best one.
I believe the original purpose of the SACC was to create the base-line of which forms are properly described, to clean up the list from field guide splits and revert to species such forms that were lumped without evidence in the fifties. This way it would be clearer which forms needed more investigation. To put down English names was more of a bi-product of the other work. If SACC is inventing completely new names for some birds this creates confusion. They should refrain from this. They should only choose between existing names.

Gunnar
 
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