Is it me or the Zen Ray ED3? (1 Viewer)

[Terracentric]

I'm having issues with the Zen Ray ED3. It keeps blacking out. It seems that a little bit of bin or eye movement, creates black outs. I wear glasses and the eye relief of the ED3 is 16.8mm. The images are great even in low light - sharp and clear. The FOV is 426 ft. But it's hard to enjoy the ED3 when it's so sensitive to slight movements.

On the contrary, the new Nikon Monarch 5 with an eye relief of 19mm is more forgiving. No blackouts.

ZR customer service said that maybe I have too much eye relief. How can that be when I'm fine with a 19mm? Am I missing something? Does a 2mm IPD matter? The ED3 has a minimum IPD of 56mm while the Monarch 5 has a minimum IPD of 54mm.

 

[Steve C]

Try exchanging for a 7x43 ED 3. There is more eye relief there than the 8x43. Sometimes some faces and some binoculars are not made to match. I have always thought that one of the most important aspects of any binocular is how well it fits your face and eyes.

 

[eitanaltman]

ZR customer service said that maybe I have too much eye relief. How can that be when I'm fine with a 19mm? Am I missing something?

You can't always directly compare eye relief specs, as it has a lot to with eyecup design and how it fits your hands/face. I don't wear glasses but I did find that the 8x43 ED3 had slightly too much eye relief for my preferences, causing my to have to sort of brace it on my brow to hold it a little farther from your eyes.

Have you tried clicking the eyecup out one stop on the ED3 to lessen the effective eye relief? If that solves the blackout problem then you know the issue is too much eye relief (and thus Steve's suggestion of the 7x43 which has even MORE wouldn't be a good one).

Does a 2mm IPD matter? The ED3 has a minimum IPD of 56mm while the Monarch 5 has a minimum IPD of 54mm.

Minimum IPD only matters if your eyes are so narrow that you have to squeeze the barrels together as far as they can go. If the minimum IPD is insufficient, then you will see a double image (i.e. the impression of two separate circles) because the barrels can't get close enough for your eyes to "join" the two images into one.

 

[BruceH]

......... Does a 2mm IPD matter? The ED3 has a minimum IPD of 56mm while the Monarch 5 has a minimum IPD of 54mm.

Do you have the binocular adjusted to the minimum interpupillary distance (IPD) setting? Meaning ..... is the binocular "squeezed" to the setting stop?

If so, then you may have run out of adjustment room. That will definitely cause alignment issues resulting in "blackout" type results. If so, I do not know of any work-around for that problem.

You mentioned using glasses. Are these prescription glasses?. If so, your prescription should list your IPD measurement. Is it less than the Zen-Ray 56mm minimum setting?

 

[Terracentric]

Have you tried clicking the eyecup out one stop on the ED3 to lessen the effective eye relief?

Yes. It didn't work.

Do you have the binocular adjusted to the minimum interpupillary distance (IPD) setting? Meaning ..... is the binocular "squeezed" to the setting stop?

Yes and funny you mention that. With eyeglasses and with eyecups completely turned down, I was squeezing to the minimum IPC and wanted IPD to get even closer.

You mentioned using glasses. Are these prescription glasses? If so, your prescription should list your IPD measurement. Is it less than the Zen-Ray 56mm minimum setting?

My optometrist said my IPD is 61mm so technically my IPD is within ZR's IPD range.

I tried the bins with contact lenses today. Now I don't know whether it's power of suggestion from ZR's customer service, but I do think I'm not seeing the entire FOV without glasses. And even with contacts, I was still getting blackouts but not as much as with the eyeglasses.

With the eyecups turned halfway or to the highest level, I tended to hold the bins maybe half an inch away from my eyes. I also tried resting the eyecups on/a little under/tilted from my eyebrows. None of the above made me see the entire FOV unlike with the Nikon Monarch 5, 7 and two Zeiss Terra EDs. It seems like what I thought as the FOV edge was actually the edge of the barrel. Does this make sense?

Much as I like the vivid images, lack of CA, tolerable pincushioning and close to true color rendering (?), the ZRs just don't fit me. So disappointing...I really wanted to keep it.

 

[pompadour]

Tc, in the foll. thread, which is on eye relief, I have some posts (#37 and after) on the subject of e. r. and ED3. The bottom line is (quoting), "I don't understand it"! BTW, The 8x43 hasn't reached me yet (due to my arrangemts. to get it here from N. America). http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=262723.

 

[Steve C]

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=211937

Look at my post #20 in the above thread. I had some issues with the eye cup extension on the 7x43 not fitting my eyes correctly. There are photos there of the fix I used.

Another thing that may work, it does for me on the 7x43 is to get some winged eye cups for the Nikon EDG. Screw the eye cup on the ED 3 down and slip the Nikon winged eye shield on.

I'd try at least my simple fix and see if that helps any.

 

[BruceH]

Yes. It didn't work.
............
My optometrist said my IPD is 61mm so technically my IPD is within ZR's IPD range.

..............

I measured the minimum IPD distance of my 8X43 ED3, which I believe is the model you have based on your above 426 FOV statement above. I may be off a little bit, but I got approx. 57.5 mm. You might try measuring your sample to make sure you are getting close to that. Your personal measurement of 61 mm is within the range so it is interesting that you are against the stops and wanting more.

Not getting the full field of view indicates the eyepieces are to far from the eye. This is the opposite of what is expected from the ED3 when viewing without glasses. As indicated by Steve, the max extended eye cup length of the ED3 is shorter in relation to the eye relief than some other brands. That may work for some facial features, but is not the best for others. I have to hold mine (without glasses) higher up toward the eyebrow than some of my other brands. I would prefer a longer eye cup extension in relation the eye relief, but using the MOLCET technique works for me with the ED3. Of course this assumes a proper IPD adjustment.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2758802&postcount=188

 

[Terracentric]

What should I look for when looking at whether the exit pupils might be misaligned aside from looking at a straight horizontal line? Should the exit pupils be perfectly round and pointing in the same exact direction?

 

[ceasar]

What should I look for when looking at whether the exit pupils might be misaligned aside from looking at a straight horizontal line? Should the exit pupils be perfectly round and pointing in the same exact direction?

Some think that ideally they should be perfectly round. Look at Allbino's website and their tests of specific binoculars. They usually comment on that.

Here is their rankings of 10 x 42 binoculars. Click on the "Test" of those that interest you.

http://www.allbinos.com/allbinos_ranking-binoculars_ranking-10x42.html

Bob

 

[Terracentric]

Still trying to figure out what's up with the Zen Ray ED3 8x43.

Today, I saw something very peculiar with the inner glass in the right barrel. There's a line on the glass that doesn't appear on the left side and neither sides of the Zeiss Terra ED. I sent pics to ZR support and Charles (hope he doesn't mind). Also, the edges of the ZR glass look rough while the edge of the Zeiss Terra glass was super smooth and clean.

Want to find out if this is not a big deal or if the glass/prism is somehow misplaced and is causing my blackouts (w/ eyeglasses), eye relief and eyecup issues, not quite seeing the entire FOV and wanting an even smaller IPD.

ZR suggested I try the Prime HD because it has more eye relief, has less pincushioning and has edge-to-edge sharpness. However, it's heavier, more expensive and according to the 2012 reviews also causes, for some people, the same exact problems I have with the ED3.

Anyway, attached are the images I took with my iPhone. I took them as straight on as possible. Thoughts?

 

[Binoseeker]

If you are looking through the bin from objective side, all around, close to the edge of the objective lens, keeping to same side of the barrel so you don’t look across through the barrel, does the “line” cut off the image so you don’t have a nice round image?

If you are only looking straight through the bin only at the optical axis, you probably won’t see any cut offs since you only are seeing a very small part of the FOV, I guess.
If you are doing this on axis test in daytime outside, your pupil is like 2mm in diameter, placed at a distance from objective of 5-10cm.…but if you had an eye with a pupil diameter corresponding to at least the objective diameter (43mm) :eek!: then the results could have been different.

I am no optics expert, just speculating, this kind of test, looking through the barrel at the edge of the objective, seems to be the most difficult one to interpret since no one of the more optical savvy here at BF has made a comment on this, as I know….or maybe they are just kind not to make a comment since this is a very stupid test :hippy:

Anders

 

[Terracentric]

If you are looking through the bin from objective side, all around, ...

Hi Anders, thanks for your input. Clarification: I am NOT looking through the lens.

What I'm wondering is why that line is there in the first place. Is it broken? Is it chipped? Is the placement skewed so that the line is showing when the glass is seen straight on? Why don't I see it on others?

Now, since a prism is in there, I know there are lines if you tilt the barrel and actually look for the lines. But why is the line visible on the ZR straight on and ONLY the right glass? Why not the left? Why not on the other bins I'm testing? Is it a defect?

Do your bins have that line? Why not?

 

[BruceH]

Terracentric ..... I had a ED3 8X unit where the right barrel view was similar to what you show in the above photo. I also wondered why there was a difference between the left and right barrels and contacted Zen-Ray. Basically I was told there is some +/- variation in the manufacturing of the components and so the prisims have to be adjusted or positioned to get the correct alignment. It was not considered a problem and it did not seem to impact the view for the short time I had the unit. I did ultimately exchange it for another due to a an issue I had with the feel of the focus mechanism. The view of the two barrels was more consistent on the replacement unit. You may want to send the photos to Zen-Ray and to find out what they have to say.

I doubt what you are seeing in the above photos impacts the backouts you originally posted about. The blackouts are most likely a result of positioning and/or eye alignment, for whatever reason (some discussed above). Did you measure the minimum IPD setting of the unit you received? It is possible there was some machining error and you are not achieving the minimum setting.

I hope you get it worked out and can achieve a proper fit because the ED3 8X does provide an excellent sharp, bright view with great contrast and color and a nice wide field. When all is right, it is about as close to an alpha classic (non flat field) view as you can get without spend much more money.

 

[Terracentric]

Thanks for all your replies. I'll see if ZR will let me exchange for another pair. I'm not quite ready to give up on the view yet for the comfort of the Nikon Monarch 5 and 7 both of which immediately snap into place but not as exciting to me "vivid-view-wise" or the less resistant Zeiss Terra ED (Will post better reviews - promise.)

I'm also thinking of trying out other ZR Vista (being a newbie) or Prime (for ED3-like views).

Steve C: I read the 7x has short eyecups too. I looked for winged ones online but couldn't find any. I'm unlikely to do the DIY extensions. Will replace and try other models instead.

eitanaltman, BruceH: I'm getting the hang of the MOLCET W/O glasses. I just don't see the entire FOV. I see the blurry edges of the eyecups (not barrels as I previously mentioned). Wish diameter of eyecups are bigger. Made me wonder about Prime! Without MOLCET, I can also place my eyes better. I can see FOV but not one circle with crisp edge. I see a double arc over to the left side. Blackouts and kidneybeaning still happening if not careful.

pompadour: Looking forward to your impressions of the ED3.

BruceH: IPD of my unit same as yours. Waiting to hear from ZR about line on inner focusing lens (and rough finish). I do think my personal facial quirks aren't the only things to blame for my ED3 issues. I think there's something off with my unit. There's also slight vignetting undetectable on the Monarch and Terra. BTW, did you keep your Prime? Your blackout complaints in 2012 are the same as mine on here.

Ceasar: Thanks for the link.

Anders: You're right; I'm not seeing cut offs looking through normally.

 

[BruceH]

..............

BruceH: IPD of my unit same as yours. Waiting to hear from ZR about line on inner focusing lens (and rough finish). I do think my personal facial quirks aren't the only things to blame for my ED3 issues. I think there's something off with my unit. There's also slight vignetting undetectable on the Monarch and Terra. BTW, did you keep your Prime? Your blackout complaints in 2012 are the same as mine on here.

................

Sorry to say I ended up returning the 10X42 Prime HD at the end of the trial period. Although I did adjust somewhat to the issues I was having with blackouts, I never got to the point that I thought I could live with it. I also found (somewhat to my surprise) that I did not adjust to the rolling ball that I saw.

Keep in mind that I had a 10x. The 8x reviews where not reporting black out issues (or rolling ball issues) to the same extent. Also, mine was from the very first production run. I am not reading about blackout issues in current comments so maybe some changes have been made. The only way you will know for sure is to give one a try. Other reviewers had no issues with the early 10x units so it appears to be something that varies between individual Prime owners.

There is one other point to keep in mind about the Prime that I think Steve C pointed out in a prior thread. I believe the eye cups are a little larger diameter than standard binoculars without lens flatteners in the eye piece. If you have a narrow IPD setting and your nose is wide at the bridge, then you may not be able to set the IPD at minimum because the edges of the eye cups will come in contact with the side of your nose before achieving the minimum setting. Again, this is something you will only know by trying.

Getting back to your original issue of blackouts, one comment you made in an above post keeps coming to mind:

"With eyeglasses and with eyecups completely turned down, I was squeezing to the minimum IPC and wanted IPD to get even closer."

I think you need to come to a definitive conclusion as to whether you are able to achieve a correct IPD setting with the ED3. It appears there is a possibility that you can not.

Here is a suggestion for consideration. If you have another binocular on hand that does provide a comfortable full view, then adjust the IPD setting and measure the actual IPD distance. Compare that to the minimum measurement of the ED3. If the result of the test unit is smaller than the minimum of the ED3 IPD measurement, then it looks like you are out of adjustment and there is not much you can do on your end. At that point it would be time to see if Zen-Ray can make any kind of accommodation. You may want to repeat the measurements multiple times to make sure it is correct.

The good news is that Zen-Ray is an excellent company to work with and I have found that Charles will do whatever he possibly can to make sure you are happy with your purchase. I have never had a problem exchanging a unit that I thought had an issue for me (although I am not sure if Charles always agreed!|:d| ) and I had no problem returning the Prime near the end of the trial period. I understand your concerns with the current unit and there is the possibility that an exchange may solve the problem.

Please continue to keep us updated on how things progress.

 

[eitanaltman]

@ Terracentric - Here's the thing... if a binocular isn't comfortable for you to use, it's not worth the trouble. It doesn't matter if you feel like the ED3 is 5% better optically than the Monarch 7 if the ED3 is going to constantly be a pain in the ass to look through for you.

That's why we talk about "fit" a lot here. Most binoculars within a given price tier are going to be pretty darn close optically. So you want to find the one that FITS you well. A binocular should be low fuss; put it up to your eyes and look at something. If you constantly have to fiddle and go through various contortions to use a binocular, it's not worth the trouble, get a different model.

 

[Terracentric]

BruceH: Comfortable IPD of other bins close to min. IPD of ED3. Spoke with Charles today. Will try out other models to see if one works. Yes, his customer service is exceptional. His explanation of strange line on the pic I posted was same as the one he gave you. More to come...

eitanaltman: Thanks for hammering the message home about FIT (on my thick stubborn newbie skull :-D). Just want to exhaust ZR options in case I got a subpar unit. As someone who has problem feet, I know all about choosing comfort.