Heliolais erythropterus or erythroptera? (1 Viewer)

[njlarsen]

Which is the correct form of the second part of the scientific name for Red-winged Warbler?

Thanks
Niels

 

[Daniel Philippe]

Which is the correct form of the second part of the scientific name for Red-winged Warbler?

The bible (David & Gosselin 2002 b) said Heliolais is masculine with erythropterus, jodopterus & rhodopterus.

 

[l_raty]

Did David & Gosselin explain why?
(I don't have the main text of their second article at hand - only the final name list...)

My interpretation:

"lais" (lambda-alpha-iota-sigma) is (Dorian) Greek for "booty" and should be the by-default etymology of the name. It is feminine, and this should normally make Heliolais - like, eg, Hippolais - feminine.

But:
If an author, when introducing a name, gives it another etymology than the default one, this etymology must be accepted and can affect the gender of the name. The Richmond Index lists another etymology for the ending of Heliolais - "laios" (lambda-alpha-iota-omicron-sigma), which refers to a kind of thrush - in a way suggesting a quote from the original text: http://www.zoonomen.net/cit/RI/Genera/H/h00193a.jpg If so, then Heliolais would end in a Latinized Greek word with a modified ending to which no particular gender is associated in Latin. In this case, it would be masculine, unless the author had stated otherwise or shown otherwise by using it in combination with a feminine or neuter adjectival specific name.

The problem is that I seem to be unable to find anything looking like an etymological note in the work where Sharpe introduced this name (http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/8302)...

 

[Daniel Philippe]

Did David & Gosselin explain why?...

They did

Heliolais Sharpe, 1903, from λαιος [laios : a thrush] (Richmond 1909), but with a changed ending, was first established in combination with kemoensis, an adjective not indicative of a particular gender, and is thus masculine. Although the Greek nouns επιλαις [epilais] and υπολαις [hupolais] also designate a small passerine, there is no such word as "lais" ["λαις"] in ancient Greek.

 

[l_raty]

there is no such word as "lais" ["λαις"] in ancient Greek.

I maintain that there is such a word:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=#62865
at least unless you exclude Dorian Greek from the definition of Greek.

 

[njlarsen]

Daniel,
did David and Gosselin say anything on Hippolais? Why the difference in treatment gender-wise?

Niels

 

[l_raty]

Niels,

Hippolais doesn't seem to have been addressed - in their paper, David & Gosselin (quite understandably) addressed explicitly only those names to which they believed some authors gave a wrong gender.

As can be inferred from the text Daniel quoted, "Hypolais" would have been an acceptable transliteration of the Greek noun ὑπολαις, which is feminine - and thus, as a generic name, it would have been feminine. But this is probably irrelevant to Hippolais because "hippo" could be the transliteration of "ἱππο" (horse), but not that of "ὑπο" (below) - these are completely different words in Greek. (Both transliterations would probably be pronounced identically by a German writer, though, thus it's far from unlikely that Hippolais was just a misspelling for Hypolais.)

If we don't accept "λαις" as a Greek word, Hippolais must have been either said to be feminine, or combined with a feminine adjective by its original author. The former, in the 19th century literature, is very unlikely - thus the latter is more likely the right answer.
(It would be interesting to check, though. This name was once attributed to Brehm, 1828, who indeed combined it with the feminine adjective media. But it is now attributed to Conrad von Baldenstein, 1827; I haven't seen this last text.)

Laurent -

 

[mb1848]

So far all I can find on Google is that Baldenstein's name in Neue Alpina 1827 was Sylvia hippolais italica.

“Baldenstein führt noch einen Vogel an, der diesem sehr ähnlich ist, den er , S. hippolais italica nennt, er ist etwas kleiner als der gelbbauchige,”
From Denkschriften
By Schweizerische Naturforschende Gesellschaft
Published by Verlag der Österreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, 1837

Does using italica along with it make it feminine? Does it matter that he used hippolais as a species level name?

A discussion of his using trinomials here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-t...denstein,+1827&client=firefox-a#PPA175-IA2,M1

Or maybe not:


Bulletin de la Societe Ornithologique Suisse tome premier, 1865-66 says Hippolais italica Neue Alpina II p. 72

Blyth on the Indian Phylloscopi states:
The four European species described by M. Degland under Hippolais are as follows:
1. H. polyglotta; Motacilla hippolais, L.; Sylvia polyglotta, Vieillot; H. salicaria, Bonap.
2. H. icterina; Sylvia icterina, Vieillot (nec Temminck); S. hippolais apud Temminck, Manuel 2nd edit. (1820)
So does the gender analysis go back to Motacilla or Sylvia hippolais?

Temminck in Manuel 2nd ed says Sylvia hippolais is from Gerard, is this Gerard of Wales of Barnacle Goose fame?

 

[Daniel Philippe]

I maintain that there is such a word

Normand David recognizes that lais is given by Perseus and by Liddell & Scott 1996 as a form of leis, this one being a form of leia. The two meanings being: 1) booty; 2) cattle, stock.
However he wonders whether it is rational to consider that Heliolais Sharpe 1903 is the “sun cattle” or the “sunny booty”.

He says that in special cases like this one, it is reasonable to follow the authors’ original combinations (or lack of combinations) (art 30.1.4.2); on the other hand, one can say that Heliolais (and others in –lais) are arbitrary combinations of letters, and that articles 30.2.2, 30.2.3 and 30.2.4 lead to arbitrary but sensible conclusions.

 

[l_raty]

Does it matter that he used hippolais as a species level name?

It would matter.
In "Sylvia hippolais italica", hippolais is a species-group name. Nomenclaturaly, this is an entirely different object from the genus group-name Hippolais - the only thing they have in common is the spelling. This genus-group name does not appear in "Sylvia hippolais italica", hence this use of hippolais would be completely irrelevant to it.

Bulletin de la Societe Ornithologique Suisse tome premier, 1865-66 says Hippolais italica Neue Alpina II p. 72

That way, it would be OK.

Blyth on the Indian Phylloscopi [...]
So does the gender analysis go back to Motacilla or Sylvia hippolais?

No. As in the first case above, neither Motacilla hippolais nor Sylvia hippolais contains the genus-group name Hippolais, hence they are both completely irrelevant to is.

Temminck in Manuel 2nd ed says Sylvia hippolais is from Gerard, is this Gerard of Wales of Barnacle Goose fame?

"Gérard." is Sébastien Gérardin de Mirecourt : http://books.google.be/books?id=IQwAAAAAQAAJ
(...but he is not saying Sylvia hippolais is from him, just saying Gérardin used "Fauvette des roseaux" for his Sylvia arundinacea. Temminck's text could be translated:
FAUVETTE DES ROSEAUX.
Buffon Oiseaux, vol.5 p.142, but not the bird appearing erroneously under this name in the Planches enluminées 581, figure 2, that shows Sylvia hippolais. --
Gérardin Tableau élémentaire vol.1 p.307.)

 

[l_raty]

Normand David recognizes that lais is given by Perseus and by Liddell & Scott 1996 as a form of leis, this one being a form of leia. The two meanings being: 1) booty; 2) cattle, stock.
However he wonders whether it is rational to consider that Heliolais Sharpe 1903 is the “sun cattle” or the “sunny booty”.

Well, the determination of the gender of a generic name is largely a technical process. We have rules that can appear arbitrary at times - the main important point is that they must be applied consistently. Here the rule is Art. 26 of the Code: "Assumption of Greek or Latin in scientific names. If the spelling of a scientific name, or of the final component word of a compound name [Art. 31.1], is the same as a Greek or Latin word, that name or that component is deemed to be a word in the relevant language unless the author states otherwise when making the name available." The meaning does not come into consideration. If the author did not state anything, and if lais is a Greek word, then the final component of Heliolais is a Greek word, and lais itself is our only choice for this word. There is simply no other way to deal with this name without going against the Code.

On the other hand, I can certainly understand that it may appear illogical to call a bird "booty of sun".
But I also struggle seriously to see how treating a bird generic name derived from the Greek as masculine, when two genuine Greek bird names with the exact same ending are feminine, and two other scientific bird generic names with the exact same ending are feminine, could be called logical (or sensible).

Laurent -

 

[Daniel Philippe]

But I also struggle seriously to see how treating a bird generic name derived from the Greek as masculine, when two genuine Greek bird names with the exact same ending are feminine, and two other scientific bird generic names with the exact same ending are feminine, could be called logical (or sensible).

In Nguembock et al. 2008 (Ibis 150: 756-765), the authors use Oreolais pulchra p. 763, but suggest p. 764:
“Oreolais, masc. gen. nov.
Type species: Apalis pulchra Sharpe, 1891
…
Etymology: Lais can refer to singers, corresponding to these species, where male and female often sing together, albeit at different pitch and speed. The prefix oreo refers to montane habitats.”

So it should be Oreolais pulcher . In this case ND asks whether the specific data in this original work should have priority on the gender agreement ? Yes or no ?

 

[l_raty]

In Nguembock et al. 2008 (Ibis 150: 756-765), the authors use Oreolais pulchra p. 763, but suggest p. 764:
“Oreolais, masc. gen. nov.
Type species: Apalis pulchra Sharpe, 1891
…
Etymology: Lais can refer to singers, corresponding to these species, where male and female often sing together, albeit at different pitch and speed. The prefix oreo refers to montane habitats.”

So it should be Oreolais pulcher . In this case ND asks whether the specific data in this original work should have priority on the gender agreement ? Yes or no ?

Perhaps one way to deal with it would be to say that, if Lais cannot refer to singers in Latin or Greek, the etymology note (that doesn't state a language) indicates that the name is neither Latin nor Greek? In this case the gender specified by the author would clearly prevail over the gender indicated by the combination (Art. 30.2.2 prevails over Art. 30.2.3).