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Greater Sandplover (Now I have learned the Tibetan) - Bangkok this very afternoon (1 Viewer)

Aladdin

Well-known member
Thailand
Dear Members and Bird watchers
Back home from Bang Pu and I spotted big groups of Tibetan Sandplovers. I learned about the Tibetan in my previous thread here on birdforum, so thanks for that.

Picture X-1, it is clearly Tibetan sandplovers

I studied the birds and it was fun to see all the different plumages. I have studied the sandplovers after my last thread so I know that there is no difference between the female and male Tibetan Sandplover in my book.

Great Sandplover is different, the male have a white forhead with a black band and the female have a white forhead without the black band.

Picture X-2, is this a moulting Tibetan or a Greater MALE Sandplover? Have two white dots on the fore head
Picture X-3 + X-4, is this a moulting Tibetan or a Greater FEMALE Sandplover? Have white forehead with no visible signs of the black band
 

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X-1. I agree, Tibetan Sandplovers.

X-2. This is a moulting Tibetan SP. The most useful feature here is the width of the orange breast band - this is very broad on the breast and flanks, and is a deep orange colour. Greater SP has a narrower, paler breast band, maybe half the width seen on this bird. The white on the forehead is because the bird is still in moult - these feathers often seem to be moulted later than the rest of the head.
(Note that the breast band is one of the features that varies geographically - Greater SP of subspecies columbinus in the Middle East has a broad breast band).

X-3. Also Tibetan SP. The structure is typical for schaeferi Tibetan SP (large, rounded head, large eye, bill shape). It's just starting moult into breeding plumage, but you can already see that the breast band will be extensive along the flanks. The retained non-breeding plumage is typical of Tibetan (especially note the long supercilium). Given the dark orange on the breast/flanks and the black in the forehead, I would expect that this is a male, but it's tricky to sex at this early stage of moult.

X-4. Non-breeding Tibetan SP. Sandplovers are trickier in non-breeding plumage, and this bird is not at a very convenient angle. But the head pattern (long, white supercilium) and structure (small appearance, round head) and blunt-tipped bill point towards Tibetan.
 
X-3. Also Tibetan SP. The structure is typical for schaeferi Tibetan SP (large, rounded head, large eye, bill shape). It's just starting moult into breeding plumage, but you can already see that the breast band will be extensive along the flanks. The retained non-breeding plumage is typical of Tibetan (especially note the long supercilium). Given the dark orange on the breast/flanks and the black in the forehead, I would expect that this is a male, but it's tricky to sex at this early stage of moult.
WOW!

Great reading, highly appreciated!

But your remark above made me a wee bit confused. My book Birds of Thailand and my Thai book have the same picture of adult breeding MALE and FEMALE. Note: These books still have them as "LESSER SAND PLOVER"

Maybe time for me to see if I have to update my books

But your remark made me open my third book "A field guide to the birds of Thailand" by Craig Robson. There are a lot of options for the Lesser Sand Plover.

I also have the ebook Birds of South East Asia by Craig Robson. I have started to by e guides as it is a bit of a hassle to carry all the birding guides around. But I guess it takes some "GET USED TO" as I still do not like the ebooks.

See attached page to compare the different stages in Lesser Sand Plovers. Now I understand how to see the difference between male and female, for sure, a different thing to do it in the field.

My picture X-2 (The bird with the two whit the dots in the fore head) now looks like a breeding male, fig 5g. Mongolus have 2 white dots as per attached bird guide.

My picture X-1, with back forehead looks like fig 5c breeding male schaeferi black forehead without any white

And thanks to you, now I understand how to see the difference between the Greater and Lesser breeding. Should be easy for me to see the difference, at least when I can compare both birds.

According to my book and attached picture, the female should not have a black frame around the white throat and the male should have a narrow black frame. Is it correct to say that picture X-1 and X-2 would be females because of the lack of black frame?

And again, maybe time to see if there are updated bird guides available as I want to study the new names and the difference between the schaeferi and Mongolus

For me the Mongolus looks like a Greater Sand Plover, except of course for the with of the orange breast band.

This was fun, also frustrating, you learn and take a step forward and suddenly you have learnt so much so it is like two steps back as I understand less again.

Again, thank you very much! Highly appreciated
Aladdin

 

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Some of the past literature on these species has been a bit confused and makes the different species seem more similar than is actually the case. This is often due to confusion caused by geographical variation. I am lucky to live somewhere that all three species occur, and can be seen alongside each other (in Hong Kong), which is why I have been interested in these species.

The following is a brief summary to what I consider the most important features of breeding plumage sand plovers in East and Southeast Asia (because of geographical variation, these may not necessarily apply in the Middle East and Central Asia, especially columbinus Greater).

Tibetan Sandplover (schaeferi)
Male: Fully black forehead*, black mask, no black band on upper breast.
Extensive bright orange on breast and flanks sometimes extends as far as the belly, with a smooth appearance and smooth transition to whiter belly, often also with extensive orange on the upperparts/crown.
Legs are usually dark grey or black.
*The (black) forehead is often the last thing to moult into breeding plumage and the first to moult after breeding, so birds can show white patches on the forehead during moult. Don't assume that a bird with white on the forehead is not Tibetan

Female: Pattern is similar to the male, but the forehead and mask are brown. Breast colour usually paler orange than on the male and less likely to show orange in the upperparts.

Siberian Sandplover (mongolus/stegmanni)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, often with a narrow black band on the upper breast.
Extensive red on breast and flanks, often with whiter tips to feathers. Breast colour is darker and not as bright as on Tibetan, usually a slightly pinkish-red. Not as extensive on the belly as Tibetan and with sharper transition to white belly. Often slightly browner/greyer on flanks. Often red collar, but little red in the mantle or crown.
Legs are usually dark grey.

Female: Similar to the male, but often with a dark brown mask (not pure black), some browner feathers in the breast band, slightly less extensive breast band and may lack the black band across the upper breast. Often has a short, white supercilium behind the eye.

Greater Sandplover (leschenaultii)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead* usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, no black on breast
Pale orange breast band narrow, only on upper breast, sometimes with an isolated orange patch on the fore flanks near the bend of the wing. Breast band paler than on Tibetan or Siberian, with clean lower edge. Sometimes with orange on the mantle and/or crown.
Legs are usually pale yellow-orange or greenish.
* We get a few Greater SP in Hong Kong with very tiny white spots on the forehead, which can be confused with Tibetan. Check other features as well.

Female: Variable. Usually with browner mask than the male and brown in the breast band. Some seem to show little breeding plumage.

Male Tibetan: ML617918318 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Tibetan: ML445670931 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Siberian: ML618409582 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Siberian: ML617902373 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Greater: ML616848701 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Greater: ML617128555 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
 
Some of the past literature on these species has been a bit confused and makes the different species seem more similar than is actually the case. This is often due to confusion caused by geographical variation. I am lucky to live somewhere that all three species occur, and can be seen alongside each other (in Hong Kong), which is why I have been interested in these species.

The following is a brief summary to what I consider the most important features of breeding plumage sand plovers in East and Southeast Asia (because of geographical variation, these may not necessarily apply in the Middle East and Central Asia, especially columbinus Greater).

Tibetan Sandplover (schaeferi)
Male: Fully black forehead*, black mask, no black band on upper breast.
Extensive bright orange on breast and flanks sometimes extends as far as the belly, with a smooth appearance and smooth transition to whiter belly, often also with extensive orange on the upperparts/crown.
Legs are usually dark grey or black.
*The (black) forehead is often the last thing to moult into breeding plumage and the first to moult after breeding, so birds can show white patches on the forehead during moult. Don't assume that a bird with white on the forehead is not Tibetan

Female: Pattern is similar to the male, but the forehead and mask are brown. Breast colour usually paler orange than on the male and less likely to show orange in the upperparts.

Siberian Sandplover (mongolus/stegmanni)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, often with a narrow black band on the upper breast.
Extensive red on breast and flanks, often with whiter tips to feathers. Breast colour is darker and not as bright as on Tibetan, usually a slightly pinkish-red. Not as extensive on the belly as Tibetan and with sharper transition to white belly. Often slightly browner/greyer on flanks. Often red collar, but little red in the mantle or crown.
Legs are usually dark grey.

Female: Similar to the male, but often with a dark brown mask (not pure black), some browner feathers in the breast band, slightly less extensive breast band and may lack the black band across the upper breast. Often has a short, white supercilium behind the eye.

Greater Sandplover (leschenaultii)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead* usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, no black on breast
Pale orange breast band narrow, only on upper breast, sometimes with an isolated orange patch on the fore flanks near the bend of the wing. Breast band paler than on Tibetan or Siberian, with clean lower edge. Sometimes with orange on the mantle and/or crown.
Legs are usually pale yellow-orange or greenish.
* We get a few Greater SP in Hong Kong with very tiny white spots on the forehead, which can be confused with Tibetan. Check other features as well.

Female: Variable. Usually with browner mask than the male and brown in the breast band. Some seem to show little breeding plumage.

Male Tibetan: ML617918318 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Tibetan: ML445670931 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Siberian: ML618409582 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Siberian: ML617902373 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Greater: ML616848701 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Greater: ML617128555 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Thank you again johnallcock!

This was very good! And the picture Male Siberian: ML618409582 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library and I can see the black frame around the white throat as in the guide book.

I will save this for future references as I am sure I will run in to trouble with these birds again.

So you have all the different species in Hong Kong. I will have to come there to have a look. Do you know any guide?

I will go to Europe next week for 2 weeks of bird watching but I guess June would be a good month. As you have seen on my pictures, it looks like the birds are in progress to moult in to full summer uniform.

Kind Regards and I wish you a pleasant weekend
Aladdin
 
So you have all the different species in Hong Kong. I will have to come there to have a look. Do you know any guide?

I will go to Europe next week for 2 weeks of bird watching but I guess June would be a good month. As you have seen on my pictures, it looks like the birds are in progress to moult in to full summer uniform.

June is actually not a great month to visit HK for birding. Migration is more or less over, and the weather is hot and humid, with a high chance of rain.

If you're interested to see the sandplovers, the best time is spring (April - May) when they are in breeding plumage or late summer (August-September) when they stop here to moult. There would probably be some around in June, but mostly young birds that aren't going to breed this year and aren't in breeding plumage. Greater is the commonest here, Siberian is fairly common in spring, and Tibetan is fairly uncommon.

Send me a private message if you want more info about visiting.
 
June is actually not a great month to visit HK for birding. Migration is more or less over, and the weather is hot and humid, with a high chance of rain.

If you're interested to see the sandplovers, the best time is spring (April - May) when they are in breeding plumage or late summer (August-September) when they stop here to moult. There would probably be some around in June, but mostly young birds that aren't going to breed this year and aren't in breeding plumage. Greater is the commonest here, Siberian is fairly common in spring, and Tibetan is fairly uncommon.

Send me a private message if you want more info about visiting.
Thank you!

I have printed this thread and keep it in my bird book.

We had high water 3 hours again and it is on the way out now. It will turn after lunch and I will go down to have a look at the mudflats for some practice.

Thanks for all the help

Except for the waders, what time is good for birding in Hong Kong, I guess it is the same as here in Thailand, spring time when they are busy flirting and to make eggs.

I will most likely be away for job in Aug-Sep. But I am only one hour away so it is easy for me to go.

I will PM you before I go

Thanks for everything, highly appreciated
Aladdin
 
Some of the past literature on these species has been a bit confused and makes the different species seem more similar than is actually the case. This is often due to confusion caused by geographical variation. I am lucky to live somewhere that all three species occur, and can be seen alongside each other (in Hong Kong), which is why I have been interested in these species.

The following is a brief summary to what I consider the most important features of breeding plumage sand plovers in East and Southeast Asia (because of geographical variation, these may not necessarily apply in the Middle East and Central Asia, especially columbinus Greater).

Tibetan Sandplover (schaeferi)
Male: Fully black forehead*, black mask, no black band on upper breast.
Extensive bright orange on breast and flanks sometimes extends as far as the belly, with a smooth appearance and smooth transition to whiter belly, often also with extensive orange on the upperparts/crown.
Legs are usually dark grey or black.
*The (black) forehead is often the last thing to moult into breeding plumage and the first to moult after breeding, so birds can show white patches on the forehead during moult. Don't assume that a bird with white on the forehead is not Tibetan

Female: Pattern is similar to the male, but the forehead and mask are brown. Breast colour usually paler orange than on the male and less likely to show orange in the upperparts.

Siberian Sandplover (mongolus/stegmanni)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, often with a narrow black band on the upper breast.
Extensive red on breast and flanks, often with whiter tips to feathers. Breast colour is darker and not as bright as on Tibetan, usually a slightly pinkish-red. Not as extensive on the belly as Tibetan and with sharper transition to white belly. Often slightly browner/greyer on flanks. Often red collar, but little red in the mantle or crown.
Legs are usually dark grey.

Female: Similar to the male, but often with a dark brown mask (not pure black), some browner feathers in the breast band, slightly less extensive breast band and may lack the black band across the upper breast. Often has a short, white supercilium behind the eye.

Greater Sandplover (leschenaultii)
Male: Black frame on forehead with white patches on centre of forehead* usually split in two by black line down centre, black mask, no black on breast
Pale orange breast band narrow, only on upper breast, sometimes with an isolated orange patch on the fore flanks near the bend of the wing. Breast band paler than on Tibetan or Siberian, with clean lower edge. Sometimes with orange on the mantle and/or crown.
Legs are usually pale yellow-orange or greenish.
* We get a few Greater SP in Hong Kong with very tiny white spots on the forehead, which can be confused with Tibetan. Check other features as well.

Female: Variable. Usually with browner mask than the male and brown in the breast band. Some seem to show little breeding plumage.

Male Tibetan: ML617918318 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Tibetan: ML445670931 - Tibetan Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Siberian: ML618409582 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Siberian: ML617902373 - Siberian Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library

Male Greater: ML616848701 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
Female Greater: ML617128555 - Greater Sand-Plover - Macaulay Library
I didn't realise you get Tibetan there, John. I wonder if they roam further north?
 
I didn't realise you get Tibetan there, John. I wonder if they roam further north?
They used to be considered a rarity but have been reported more frequently in the last 10-15 years or so. This may be partly from a better understanding of ID features, especially outside the breeding season. Most occur in autumn/winter and leave before they get into full breeding colours.
They get commoner as you move (south-)west along the Chinese coast, and are numerous in western Guangdong - I think this is partly due to habitat, and the sandy beaches there are better than the muddier shores in HK.

And yes, they do get further north. I've seen quite a few records from Taiwan and eastern China (I think as far north as Zhejiang?)
 

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