raymie
Well-known member
Most sources consider south Florida to be Neotropical.
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Petition to AOS Leadership on the Recent Decision to Change all Eponymous Bird Names (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter rahopko
- Start date
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
I don’t mean to pick fights here Jim but Mexico being part of North America is certainly accurate, and there is nothing equivocal about it. I personally see it as a lot of basically inertia/baggage that the ornithological community (among other entities, including some UN associated bodies) uses the term North America to exclude Mexico. I acknowledge that including Central America is more complex as political vs geographical definitions of N America are less clear.
I am US born and lived 20-25 years in California. I’ve spent over a year of my life living, working, and traveling in Mexico, nearly a year in central America, and about 10 years in South America, before relocating from Argentina to Switzerland for my partner’s job. Along the way I’ve also managed to live in New Zealand and Germany but at the end of the day my first language is “American” english. Make of all that what you will but none of it changes Mexico’s unequivocal status as part of North America by any definition.
I also fully realize how complex these terms are and how messy just the adjective “american” is. American english is what I speak but it doesn’t really describe the english of Brazilians, who are unequivocally American by continental definitions. All over the latin world I am variously called or call myself estadounidense, gringo, güero, americano, yanqui, and probably more that I’m not thinking of just now. There is a lot to all of this and cultural context and ease of explaining and ease of communication are big factors in casual conversation (estadounidense is a mouthful and not many people say it on the street). Right now I’m in Armenia and if someone asks me where I’m from I don’t say “the United States” but rather either “America” or “yoosa” - either of which will be better understood. In Argentina I’m invariably a yanqui. In Brazil it’s just americano. And sure, that’s just the way languages work, it’s easier. Austrians get called Germans all over the world. Welsh and Scottish people get called English. But at the end of the day the AOS isn’t a traveller having a discussion with a friendly person they just met. It’s an organization that is purports to represent ornithological interests of North America and then unequivocally misuses the term.
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
This would be wrong.
Mexico is part of Latin America, is part of North America, is part of Middle America by all uses I’ve seen (though I’m not aware of any strict definition for Middle America), but is certainly not part of Central America. Central America, and I don’t think I’m misunderstanding anything, is Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panamá. Central America is also part of North America and is not a continent thought it is sometimes treated separately from a political view.
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
It’s pretty impossible to really say as each species has its own lines, similar to issues defining the WP or classifying Cyprus or the Canaries or the Caucasus or the like. Blackpoll Warbler spends more time in S America than in N America but breeds in Alaska. I don’t think that makes Alaska part of the neotropics however.
More seriously, the US’s S border is a rough and decent break (minus SE AZ/SW NM and parts of S TX and S FL) for a reasonable number of temperate species, so it’s understandable how, beyond just language issues, it’s used as a convenient line of demarcation for coverage of guidebooks.
However, my view (and I would guess that species counts would back this up) is that the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (basically the constriction in C Mexico that is roughly along the E border of Oaxaca and Veracruz) is the most important biogeographical border between most of the avifauna in most of North America and most of the avifauna in Central America.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I think this is what I had in mind.
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
Notice the word “and”
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I did, that's clearly my misunderstanding.
I've got well over a thousand books and I was recalling this from memory, albeit, wrongly.
Mysticete
Well-known member
Returning to the topic at hand:
AOS has put out a general poll, open to everyone, even non-AOS members, asking for general comments on the process. Note they are not asking for specific comments on names for each of the 6 "pilot" species, but rather broader things. So if folks want to make their voice heard, here is the chance!
(Of course, I would also suggest comments should be calm and collected...angry rants are not likely to do your side of the debate any favors).
AOS has put out a general poll, open to everyone, even non-AOS members, asking for general comments on the process. Note they are not asking for specific comments on names for each of the 6 "pilot" species, but rather broader things. So if folks want to make their voice heard, here is the chance!
(Of course, I would also suggest comments should be calm and collected...angry rants are not likely to do your side of the debate any favors).
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
It seems to me that what some people write, is determined by some others, as being a 'rant', simply it seems for taking an opposing view.
How do you infer a 'rant' from the written word, you see no body language or hear the tone of voice?
From what I can see on here, something deemed a rant, is seven or eight lines of text, perhaps your rant is different to mine?
Mysticete
Well-known member
The most recent comprehensive studies, or at least the studies using birds, mammals, and frogs, generally place South Florida firmly in the Nearctic. I think the earlier referral might be heavily based on plant diversity, rather than vertebrate diversity
Paul Chapman
Well-known member
Where can I find this 'poll'? Or do you mean the form referred to here...
"The AOS leadership is interested in any ideas, comments, feedback, and suggestions you would like to share with us about the development of this pilot project and how you might become involved; about any AOS decisions or actions regarding English common bird names; or about the upcoming AOS public forum that will address this initiative at our 2024 annual meeting. Please submit your ideas and comments to us through this online form by Friday, 31 May 2024."
The short window was something that led to me raising my eyebrows when I read it. The fact that it was devised as an on-line form which needs to be completed to see its contents is also offputting. There are basic information gathering aspects including your organisation affiliation and your AOS membership status and then the substance can be added under the following headings:-
"Comments, Suggestions, Feedback, Ideas (OPTIONAL)
Please share your comments with us.
AOS English Common Names Pilot Project
OPTIONAL: Please share comments, suggestions, feedback, and ideas about the English Common Names Pilot Project. (1,000 characters max)
Your answer
Past AOS decisions & actions about English bird names
OPTIONAL: Please share comments about past AOS decisions and actions about English bird names. (1,000 characters max)
Your answer
AOS Public Forum at 2024 annual meeting
OPTIONAL: Please share content and format suggestions for the AOS Public Forum on English Common Names at the 2024 annual meeting in Estes Park, Colorado, in October. (1,000 characters max)
Your answer
General comments
OPTIONAL: Please share general comments, suggestions, feedback, and ideas. (1,000 characters max)"
This email totals 1,828 characters which is pretty indicative that this is cynical lip service.
All the best
Paul
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qwerty5
Controversial opinion generator
Text has a tone. It's not hard to discern the tone from something like: "This decision is a bunch of woke nonsense invented by self-righteous white elites." Such language is immediately off-putting and NEVER helps any argument. When one makes a calm, logical argument without superlatives, generalizations etc., then the message will be recieved without offense and is much more likely to be considered, even if the same (much more tactfully stated) conclusion is reached.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Sorry but that's crap.
I can easily write that without foaming at the mouth, you infer what is not there and the example you use is factually correct so why should one tip-toe around the isssue?
Some of the stuff coming from the other side which involves claims of racism, are most definitely rants.
The actual definition is this - 'to speak, write (capital letters in print, right?) or shout in a loud, uncontrolled, or angry way', I argue that whilst you may think you can infer some physical actions from a writer, most often, you'd be wrong. I didn't highlight 'angry' there because one can be calm yet angry at the same time. If I were to write something like stay away from my wife or I'll effing kill you', this could be presumed to be a rant but even that, can be verbalised without loss of control.
I argue that you can only guess, at how the person, writing the words is acting, if he's throwing his arms around and swearing or if he's the personification of calm. I don't consider what I write to be any kind of rant. I write what I think and I'm calm when I do it. One observation is that the longer an opinion piece is, it's more likely to earn the title of being a rant.
The other thing, offence, your free speach rights include the right to 'offend' unless it's against one of the so called 'protected' classes. and just because one me feel offended, you have no right to describe the writers words as a rant, just because you don't like them.
Bottom line, rant is an over used word in relation to the written word and most often used by people whose argument is being dismantled and who want to arrogantly dismiss a view point without addressing it. I'm writing this after packing my six year old off to school and I'm calmly, sipping my tea, no rant going on here.
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Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Precisely, as is the 'we're taking the poll seriously', nonsense.
They can decide whatever they want now, I won't ever use any of the new names, never have with things like Longspur, Jaeger or Loon and it will always be a Grey Plover over here
I do feel strongly about both the motives for the changes and the way they were surreptitiously, forced through, it was 'fait accomplit' before the public had any idea that it was in the pipeline. I will not buy any field guides which enact the 'new' names and spreadsheets can be edited so in fact, this nonsense will have absolutely, zero affect on me in the real World.
No rants were harmed in the production of this opinion.
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Dave Boyle
Well-known member
But it's the AOS, I don't understand why non-Americans are getting so invested, just ignore it, it doesn't need to affect you
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Why doesn't it? There are plenty of non Americans who bird the Americas, including me and the underlying reasons for the changes are sociopolitical and have a much broader reach than just birding.
Also, without checking each species affected, I presume that some are migratory so are not exclusively American.
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Paul Chapman
Well-known member
The four principle reasons would be:-
(1) the potential use of the names by an international system that you may use - eBird;
(2) the potential use of the names in future American or international literature that you may purchase or indeed free content such as the Internet;
(3) in order to show support for individuals who have expressed views with which you may agree; &
(4) because as a matter of principle, the change of non-offensive eponyms in circumstances where there is no cogent evidence (that it will increase either diversity or engagement) is likely to damage a hobby with which you engage either simply internationally or also in the area concerned or indeed, if you feel to the contrary that the change will increase diversity or engagement and you wish to show support.
Those are the reasons why I will express my views.
All the best
Paul
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